Hello
Daniel Davis
buybuydandavis at yahoo.com
Wed Oct 13 05:08:45 CEST 2010
Carmen and I seem to be in agreement on the relation of egoism to moral
sentiment. Damn. Can't even count on egoists to oppose morality anymore.
> Objective is affairs of the object world, which is _not_ somebody's idea of
>what "ought to be."
>
Yes. Given your interest in GS and Egoism, I'd expect us to be in agreement on
that one.
> > I sent an email to
> > Daniel Dennett, asking him for a reference to Rapoport's Rules of Debate he
> > advocated in some lecture. He said he was looking for a good reference
>himself.
>
> Oh. Dan. That was not Rapoport. That was Ed MacNeal, and the rules for
>debate were that you had to > state your case until the other person could
>articulate it correctly. It was some kind of war. I will think of > the name
>in a minute. I think it was a grokduel.
No, it was Rapoport. Grokduel is interesting in itself, but it wasn't what
Dennet had talked about.
As I said, I dug up references. I'll include the links I sent to Dennett at the
bottom of the post. Really funny that you interviewed Rapoport. It's a small
world after all.
> Who is Dennett?
Daniel Dennett. Along with Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, and Richard
Dawkins, the Four Horsemen of the Counter Apocalypse - the so called New
Atheists. Dennett is a philosopher from Tufts University, focusing on philosophy
of mind, though he has branched out into darwinianism, evolution, and religion
as a natural phenomenon. A rare philosopher who usually makes sense, and has
interesting insights.
- Dan Davis
My original email to Dennett, quoting what he said about rules of debate:
#############
Hi. You said the following at the end of the third day of your 2009 Harvard
Lecture about Anatol Rapoport, and Rapoports Rules. I was hoping that you had a
reference, or better, a link to the original. Thank you.
You said of Rapoport's Rules:
Here's what you do when you have to comment on a paper.
The first thing you do is summarize the person's views so well that your goal is
to get them to say "I wish I had put it that way."
Second, you point out things that you agree with that maybe are not commonly
agreed to. Anything that you're an ally of the person.
Third, anything you've learned from the person.
Only after you've done those three things do you say a word of but, a word of
criticism.
It's really a wonderful lesson to learn. First of all if you do it carefully,
you've got a very receptive audience in your target. You've already shown that
you understand exactly what that person is trying to do, and you agree with him
about some things he is embattled about, and he has actually taught you
something, so that is somebody who wants to hear what you have to say.
#############
My second email to Dennett, detailing the relevant references I found.
#############
I found a decent reference to Rapoport's Rules of Debate in his "Fights, Games,
and Debates".
Google book links below. I think they'll work for you. Annoyingly, I can't cut
and past from the pages.
http://books.google.com/books?id=h30pcsNDD80C&lpg=PP1&dq=anatol%20rapoport&pg=PA286#v=snippet&q=Carl%20Rogers&f=false
See page 286 snippet and select page 286 link to read pages 286,287
http://books.google.com/books?id=h30pcsNDD80C&lpg=PP1&dq=anatol%20rapoport&pg=PA286#v=snippet&q=99&f=false
See page 386 snippets for citation to Carl Rogers article in ETC.
Rogers, CR "Communication: Its Blocking and Facilitation," ETC., A Review of
General Semantics 9, (1952), pp. 83-88. 100...
There are a few abridged version of the article on the web. This page below has
the most complete version I saw, though I actually prefer Rapoport's framing of
the idea in his book.
http://www.mrrena.com/2008/rogerian.php
Interesting that both Rogers and Rapoport are associated with General Semantics.
Some random web page that gives some context, which I cut and paste below. Hope
this helps.
http://reconstruction.eserver.org/031/thorne.htm
<7> In Rapoport's Fights, Games and Debates (1960), Rapoport essentially defines
argument as persuasion. He asserts that "the removal of threat," which he
claims is based on Rogers' technique of permissive therapy, is one way to
persuade (286). He claims that his method is based on Rogerian psychology
and is designed to help one modify an opponent's image. Rapoport presents
this method as a means to help one to prevail over an opponent in an
argument.
Rapoport's method includes three components, from which Young, Becker and
Pike adapt their steps of Rogerian argument. First, arguers must convey to
opponents that they are understood, and then they must delineate the
aspects
of opponents' positions that are valid (287). These steps function by
removing
threat and enticing opponents to trust and listen to the debaters, who may
then begin describing their positions to more receptive audiences.
<8> Based on Rapoport's model of Rogerian persuasion, Young, Becker and
Pike explain that the theory of Rogerian argument, in Rhetoric: Discovery
and Change (1970),
rests on the assumption that out of a need to preserve the stability of his
image, a person will refuse to consider alternatives that he feels are
threatening, and hence, that changing a person's image depends on
eliminating this sense of threat. Much of men's resistance to logical
argument seems explainable by this assumption.
A strong sense of threat may render the reader immune to even the most carefully
reasoned and well-supported argument. (274)<9> The explicit goal of Young,
Becker and
Pike's model of Rogerian argument, then, is to reduce threat as a means of
"changing a person's image." Although the word persuasion is not used here as it
is by Rapoport, it is implicitly understood. Maxine Hairston in "Carl
Rogers's Alternative to Traditional Rhetoric" (1976) also links Rogerian
argument with persuasion. She interprets the "basic premise" of Rogers'
seminal article, "Communication: Its Blocking and its Facilitation" as "you
do not convert people to your point of view by threatening them or
challenging their values" (373). The logical conclusion to this statement is
that you may be able to convert people to your point of view by finding a
method that is not threatening to them or challenging of their values.
Hairston asserts that this insight has "profound implications for rhetoric"
and that
"any theory of persuasion must take it into account" (373). Although
Hairston, Young, Becker and Pike take for granted that Rogers' theories are
appropriate for use by rhetoricians as a means to persuade, this is not the
case. In fact, it may be antithetical to Rogers' ideas to use Rogerian
theory to persuade.
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